Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Nick Sumner) — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 03:50:33 GMT

Dear God will someone save us from this bludy formatting!

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Nick Sumner) — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 03:49:17 GMT

If there was any theme to my air focused reading over the last 18months, it would be what the bomber types promised pre war, what resources they got in exchange for their promises, how that impacted other services during rearmerment and later, and how little they did when compared to what they promised.

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:26:03 GMT

Sure - but as one example the staff study on the defence of Singapore, from around this date or slightly earlier stated a need for 450 planes to defend the penisular. These would largely be of the "useless" types.

hmmm. when I say light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s I mean a bomber focussed, screw the other services, screw tactical air requirements and win the war from the air mentality. You can add variable qualitities of doctrinair absordities like unescorted bombers fighting their...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Nick Sumner) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:04:18 GMT

NewGolconda wrote:
Honestly, what do you think of the view, expressed early in 1941, before Greece, Crete, the reverses in the western desert, force z, malaya and singapore - that american single egined fighters were so useless to the war effort that it was almost imoral to take them from the american taxpayer?

Can it not be said that the disasters of 1941/42 were the catalyst that showed how badly...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:55:16 GMT

apologies for the bloody formatting...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:53:49 GMT

I think NG has a good point, the problem is the book doesn't list what aircraft were 'on order' by MAP under Beaverbrook's 'anything as long as it flies' at the time 'leadership' and we all know what that thinking did for RAF crews in 1940, IIRC, there is a reference to a quantity but the types are not listed in the book, you have to dig into the US records.

Also we have got to see what the UK did with the aircraft, it did get, with the P38 (the...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:23:21 GMT

"I think your being a bit harsh on Freeman and I'm not sure why. Don't tell me the price of gold dropped."

Dont worry, there is a Wilfred Freeman - lightblue *!-* mk II post comming in a week or so.

Honestly, what do you think of the view, expressed early in 1941, before Greece, Crete, the reverses in the western desert, force z, malaya and singapore - that american single egined fighters were so useless to the war effort that it was almost imoral to take...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Gernsback) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:05:55 GMT

What allied armies, D-Day didn't happen until June '44.

North Africa, Italy, Greece, and the Eastern Front were rather before then.

And when they did land the Tactical Air Forces were there to support them,

Some TAF were there. A lot more could have been made available were it not for being siphoned off into heavy bombers.

without the Luftwaffe to...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (No1catman) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:37:51 GMT

Gernsback wrote:

In what way - please share your thoughts.

Well, it's very simple. Heavy bombers simply did not due the job that they promised to do. While they did manage to cause some reduction in German industrial productivity, they failed to smash it or cause the will of the German people to break. Light and medium bombers dedicated to supporting the troops, on...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (No1catman) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:45:52 GMT

ickysdad wrote:

No1catman wrote:

ickysdad wrote:
what was wrong with the F4F, P-40,and P-39? The F4F was a very capable carrier fighter and the 2 USAAF types did well on the Eastern Front and the P-40 was a useful supplement in the Dessert.
What!? Everything is wrong...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Gernsback) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:04:43 GMT

In what way - please share your thoughts.

Well, it's very simple. Heavy bombers simply did not due the job that they promised to do. While they did manage to cause some reduction in German industrial productivity, they failed to smash it or cause the will of the German people to break. Light and medium bombers dedicated to supporting the troops, on the other hand, would directly aid the advance of the allied armies.

...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue jackass?

feeds@yuku.com (Nick Sumner) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 03:21:48 GMT

NewGolconda wrote:
"Freeman's job was to implement policy not make it."

I don't see how anyone who had read the biography could form this conclusion. Freeman sat on the air council for many years and was also an instrumental king maker and shoulder tapper up to the highest echelons of the service and numerous ministries.

I meant in the sense that policy was directed by...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (ickysdad) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:53:24 GMT

No1catman wrote:

ickysdad wrote:
what was wrong with the F4F, P-40,and P-39? The F4F was a very capable carrier fighter and the 2 USAAF types did well on the Eastern Front and the P-40 was a useful supplement in the Dessert.
What!? Everything is wrong with these aircraft, in comparison to the Mustang regarding the escort of US bombers over...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:26:00 GMT
"Freeman's job was to implement policy not make it."

I don't see how anyone who had read the biography could form this conclusion. Freeman sat on the air council for many years and was also an instrumental king maker and shoulder tapper up to the highest echelons of the service and numerous ministries.

Just to get things strait, I think he was exceptionally effective in his main role of development, and superintending production, also an excellent VCAS....

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:12:08 GMT
"what was wrong with the F4F, P-40,and P-39?"

This is easy, not enough of them over Comonwealth troops heads in 1941 and 1942.

"The point about the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) was that it was the only way of hitting back at Germany's Military-Industrial complex. "

The point about the bomber offensive was that it was completely ineffective until mid 1944.

Meanwhile, the British empire had real military problems.

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (No1catman) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:16:46 GMT

Gernsback wrote:

You think the US air force could manage with mainly medium bombers?

Prior to General Arnold's visit to London in April '41 America's production plans envisaged an output up to only 226 heavy bombers a month by April '43!.

"I think it would have done even better."
In what way - please share...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (No1catman) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:54:54 GMT

ickysdad wrote:
what was wrong with the F4F, P-40,and P-39? The F4F was a very capable carrier fighter and the 2 USAAF types did well on the Eastern Front and the P-40 was a useful supplement in the Dessert.

What!? Everything is wrong with these aircraft, in comparison to the Mustang regarding the escort of US bombers over Germany. The RAF evaluated the P-39 and P-40 fighters, and realised quickly that they...

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (ickysdad) — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:12:56 GMT
what was wrong with the F4F, P-40,and P-39? The F4F was a very capable carrier fighter and the 2 USAAF types did well on the Eastern Front and the P-40 was a useful supplement in the Dessert.
Also some urban legends about the P-51....

http://www.geocities.com/koala51d/legends.htm

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (Gernsback) — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:53:07 GMT

You think the US air force could manage with mainly medium bombers?

Prior to General Arnold's visit to London in April '41 America's production plans envisaged an output up to only 226 heavy bombers a month by April '43!.

I think it would have done even better. The CBO was a waste of men and material that could have been better applied elsewhere.

Re: Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (No1catman) — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:45:50 GMT
You think the US air force could manage with mainly medium bombers?

Prior to General Arnold's visit to London in April '41 America's production plans envisaged an output up to only 226 heavy bombers a month by April '43!.

"Arnold was totally converted by Freeman, and returned to the USA with enough information at his disposal to initiate vitally important changes in the American aircraft and development programmes. On 4 May '41 Roosevelt formally...

Wilfred Freeman - another light blue j*a*c*k*a*s*s?

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:02:07 GMT

An exert from "Wilfred Freedman - the Genius behind Allied Air Superiority" Written by a post war RAF fighter pilot.

Bear in mind that the period he is referring too is the twelve months that included;