Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 05:20:12 GMT

How did I "initiate" the topic of a fictional what-if concerning an augmented ABDA vs. the Imperial Navy? I didn't. I said it was an "asinine" idea and it is.

I was referring to the topic of contravening the US "Europe First" policy, not the overall thread. See your post #30; "Ironically the percentage of forces (in...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (CA30ist) — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:28:39 GMT

Hello,

How did I "initiate" the topic of a fictional what-if concerning an augmented ABDA vs. the Imperial Navy? I didn't. I said it was an "asinine" idea and it is.

Now, re the Green Book volume. It's by Matloff & Snell. Go to Ch. VII, page 147. Begin reading...in either direction.
Beyond this, you're on your own.

Enjoy!

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:50:45 GMT

The war plan agreed between the UK and US promised that something like 85% of the US resources would go to the war against Germany and Italy; according to Rick Atkinson's Army at Dawn this may not have been the case in the first year or so of the war.

I don't think the US ever made any such promise, at least...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:46:38 GMT

That's your reading, and it excludes the quote in the Green Book which makes that observation. I did not formulate it myself. If you want to pretend it doesn't say that, be my guest.

Well, it seems that you are taking a rather absolute position based on an observation someone else made. If you now wish...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:47:34 GMT

Dolphinstriker wrote:

Ironically the percentage of forces (in troops at least) sent to the Far East in the first months of the war was far larger than those transported to the ETO. In direct contradiction to our established & accepted war plans.

Are you referring to Allied troops...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (ickysdad) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:04:19 GMT

CA30ist wrote:
Hello,

That's your reading, and it excludes the quote in the Green Book which makes that observation. I did not formulate it myself. If you want to pretend it doesn't say that, be my guest. This topic is of no value in any case.

my humble opinion is that sometimes somethings are about as long as some other things are broad . You both may very well be...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (CA30ist) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:45:37 GMT

Hello,

That's your reading, and it excludes the quote in the Green Book which makes that observation. I did not formulate it myself. If you want to pretend it doesn't say that, be my guest. This topic is of no value in any case.

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:11:49 GMT

US troops sent to the Pacific at the time were many times greater than those to Europe. See the US Army Green Book series volume on Coalition Warfare 1941-42 for details.

Why? Rainbow-5. The Europe First Strategic plans, that is. Ditto above.

It's not as simple as you seem to think....

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (CA30ist) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:18:39 GMT

Hello,

US troops sent to the Pacific at the time were many times greater than those to Europe. See the US Army Green Book series volume on Coalition Warfare 1941-42 for details.

Why? Rainbow-5. The Europe First Strategic plans, that is. Ditto above.

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:26:38 GMT

Ironically the percentage of forces (in troops at least) sent to the Far East in the first months of the war was far larger than those transported to the ETO. In direct contradiction to our established & accepted war plans.

Are you referring to Allied troops (i.e. British, Australian, and American) sent to the Pacific overall, or American troops sent to Hawaii,...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:28:20 GMT

I have some 1930 primary source Australian documents that deal with British empire naval oil facilities.

During the 1920's Australia erected 6 8000 ton oil tanks in Darwin harbor as part of a contribution to British Empire fuel stocks. I don't know if any tanks were added after 1930. I don't know what portion of this 32,000 ton fuel storage was full in December 1942.

Resupply of these tanks was via ship. There was no rail head to Darwin, just a narrow gauge to...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:50:30 GMT

What sort of logistical facilities were already in place in Northern Australia and Port Moresby at the beginning of 1942?

In Northern Australia, practically none. At least none close enough to the Coral Sea to support operations there. In early 1942, I believe Port Moresby had a pier large enough to accommodate a small inter-island streamer or two and some wood and tin storage sheds. Port...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (CA30ist) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:42:30 GMT

Good. Now that this silly thread has devolved into sarcasm and insults, it can die out, as it should. The notion that such a large concentration of forces could be assembled and operational in the SW Pacific in January 1942 is asinine. You know, throwing together a lot of figures, statistics, lists and such does not reality (or alt-history for that matter) re-make.

As pathetic as communications and tactical doctrine was--to say nothing of condition & fuel problems-- in a...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:17:43 GMT

If the British had been dicesivekly beaten as speculated in the above pl;an, the Kido Butai would have been in force in both Coral Sea and Midway.

Huh?

How do you figure that?

Wasp and Ranger are not considered frontline)

Ranger wasn't; Wasp most certainly was.

The presence of the British in the Indian Ocean did force the IJN to devide forces, so nothing came of...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:54:33 GMT

We are talking about 2 different things. Pipelines and merchant tankers will move the oil to Northern Australia, Iceland or Morocco fom American oilfields. From there you need to use fleet oilers if the naval vessels cannot operate directly from a port with an oil depot.

If oil was that big a problem in the Pacific then why didn't the US choose to hold Borneo or some of the East Indies? We had a bunch of infantry divisions and P-40 squadrons sitting around doing nothing useful...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (jlyons97) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:39:24 GMT

Dave Bender wrote:
I'm not suggesting that operating in the Coral Sea was a piece of cake. But it could not be any worse then operating from Morocco or Iceland and we managed that in 1942. What sort of logistical facilities were already in place in Northern Australia and Port Moresby at the beginning of 1942?

Look at the distances. Oil for the Solomons area started out on the west coast. Oil for Morocco and...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:50:24 GMT

I'm not suggesting that operating in the Coral Sea was a piece of cake. But it could not be any worse then operating from Morocco or Iceland and we managed that in 1942. What sort of logistical facilities were already in place in Northern Australia and Port Moresby at the beginning of 1942?

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (jlyons97) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:40:58 GMT

is all that logistically difficult."

Dave,

It WAS difficult. "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" tells us so. Fuel was the big factor in operations in that theater for many months. Look at the distances from those bases you talk about. Then run the transit times for destroyers. The latter drove the train.

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:30:46 GMT

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that the US had a war plan in place which dictated US defense priorities and strategic allocation of forces, equipment, and war materials. This set of priorities was keyed to an overall Allied strategy and any changes would have to be negotiated among the Allies

Strategic Priority Number One

The defense of the North American Continent including Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and the...

Re: Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (E F Draaijers) — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:45:16 GMT

Dave Bender wrote:
You are over looking something important. The USN did confront Japan in February 1942 over the invasion of Rabaul. Only they sent a force too small to get the job done.
http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/index_frame.htm

CTF VAdm W. Brown
CV Lexington
CA CruDiv4: Pensacola (from...

Bar room Brawl - ABDA Fleet vs IJN Battleline - 1942

feeds@yuku.com (Joshua Kintner) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:43:24 GMT

The British Far Eastern Pac Fleet, in combined strength with the historical ABDA forces, plus PoW and Repulse, which assumes they were held back and not so wittingly placed into harms way, are combined in a slugfest against the IJN. While the British aircraft duke it out with Japanese aircraft, each side's respective battlelines head in to do war.

27th Feb or so is the tenative date for the battle, basically it's the historical Java Sea battle, but on a bigger scale. On...