Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:41:54 GMT

With what? Britain had no siege artillery to speak of in 1914. Neither did France. Furthermore both Britain and France are politically commited to making a maximum effort in metropolitan France at the beginning of the war. Britain also lacks an amphibious warfare capability, as they proved at Tanga and Gallipoli.

Japan is the one Entente nation that poses a real threat to a German colonial naval base. But Japan is not going to attack a German naval base in Africa or the south Pacific.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Rick Robinson) — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:45:50 GMT

But how long would Dar es Salaam have held out if it were serving as a German cruiser base, and the British threw a real effort into taking it?

Admittedly this also plays into expectations of how long the war will be. As a German I don't need my cruiser base to stand up to a massive assault, just stand up to anything less, because the war will probably be over before the Brits can mount a massive assault. Everything looks different when you assume a 6 month war instead of the 4...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:39:27 GMT

http://www.australianwargraves.org/countries/tanzania.php

Dar es Salaam, is today the capital of Tanzania (comprising the former states of Tanganyika and Zanzibar). During the 1914-18 War it was the capital of German East Africa, and here on 8th August 1914 occurred the first recorded British action of the First World War, when HMS Astraea shelled the German wireless station and...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Rick Robinson) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:43:09 GMT

More broadly we'll know whether the general type of ship outlined in the baseline requirement is a sound investment or not. From strategic perspective there is only a sliver of difference between 6000 tons / 6" and 10,000 tons / 8" - both fall into the spectrum of large subcapital cruisers, able to overwhelm low-end combatants and take on anything short of a capital ship, but requiring friendly bases to operate for more than a few weeks. If there is a viable mission for such...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:57:21 GMT

I agree. We need to know:

1. Will these cruisers have a secure war time base? If so then where?
2. What areas will they be patroling during wartime?

By answering these questions we will know how much endurance is required. And whether they need an at sea coaling capability.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Rick Robinson) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:20:37 GMT

I think the opposite is true. For global cruising you need a ship capable of coaling at sea from captured merchant vessels.

Fair point, but then we have to look at mission. For pure surface commerce raiding you probably get most mileage from a nondescript AMC. If you are going to overpower light cruisers, as I think this ship's mission is, you are never going to combine those qualities with the super range and quasi stealth of the AMC....

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (P3D) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:43:10 GMT

RN had built about half as many ACs/1st class (57) as light cruisers. France had 23. Running away from them works only so long, as your cruising speed is not much higher (and has higher coal consumption that the VTE engined ACs).
Merchant ships did not have excessive coal on board, 6-7kts cruising speed does not need excessive (most probably low quality) bunkerage. It worked for Aux cruisers as they were merchant ships.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:43:55 GMT

"In short, I think there's a lot to be said for the large light cruiser or small armored cruiser, on order of 10,000 tons, with turreted guns around 8".'

Pretty much what all the naval staffs concluded 1919-1921. Of course this is 1910 - and I suspect its still possible to build a really good 6in deck mount cruiser with that 20% qualative edge everyone is looking for, at least till next years programme. Even the 5.5in mounting has some advantages.

I have...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:39:54 GMT

I think the opposite is true. For global cruising you need a ship capable of coaling at sea from captured merchant vessels. Either that or a sailing vessel. You might be able to coal at sea with a 12,000 ton ship but I've never heard of it being done on a consistent basis. You can put 8 x 17cm main guns on an 8,000 ton CL. This gives you a margin of superiority for defeating RN CLs (the primary mission) yet still able to coal at sea. Putting the 17cm main guns in turrets is optional. But...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Rick Robinson) — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:06:00 GMT

This ship requirement is not too different from the Santa Catalina cruisers I posted here a couple of months ago, and P3D's ship with 6 x 8.2" guns is quite close to some of the concepts I came up with.

I don't quite see the point, in this era, of turret guns of less than about 8" caliber. Smaller turreted guns will lose the fast rate of fire of simple open 6" mounts with hand loading, without having that much more range and hitting power. So the basic...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:14:29 GMT

Mission.
Kill CLs on foreign stations.
Nothing in the mission statement requires this ship to kill ACs or BCs. So you use speed and endurance to evade them.

If you go with hand worked 15cm main guns then the enemy has an equal chance. Turret mounted 17cm main guns give you a decisive advantage yet the cruiser is still relatively small and inexpensive. The cruiser is still small enough that it can recoal at sea. An 8,000 ton CL with 17cm main guns is just right.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (P3D) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:57:18 GMT

If you disregard old colonial ACs, the German 17cm (actually 17.26cm) guns (or guns in the 6.8-7.7" range that can be still hand-loaded) are fine - then decrease the armor (or increase covered area) against 6" Common/HE shells (3" would do fine in most cases). If you want to arm the ship to have chance +against all those old ACs then some heavier gun better AP capability is preferable, therefore 6x21-24cm (keeping the number of guns thus displacement low). 21cm is on the small...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:01:43 GMT

We have discussed that before, and particularly Campbells comments on German power worked 6in guns in this time frame.

But regardless of any one nations technical ability, we still have the same issue.

Large power worked, power loaded guns have advantages and disadvantages.

Small hand worked, hand loaded guns have advantages and disadvantages.

The 8in gun, (particularly in its interwar, tinclad form) I put it to you, straddled that point where its...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:31:04 GMT

I don't think Germany would have insurmountable technical problems down sizing the 21cm twin turret for use with 17cm guns. However a cruiser equipped with gun turrets is definately going to cost more. How much more is a good question. In addition to the gun turrets you are also paying for the turret barbettes. You do gain an increase in effectiveness as the guns and personnel are protected from the weather and enemy fire. You also have better fields of fire as all the main guns can be on...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:59:39 GMT

A budget will help. But there are certain time bound realities. The cruisers of the world looked like this at this time, without getting into sematics of light/protected/armoured, 2nd class etc.

BC's 20-28Kt 11-14in guns, 6-11in armour, 25-28kt.
Obsolete AC's 10KT-15KT, 6-12in guns, 4-6in armour, 22-24kt.
Light Cruisers 3-5KT, 4-6in guns, 2in armour or turtle decks, 22-28kts.
Obsolete light cruisers 2-5KT, 4-6in guns, turtle decks, 19-22kt.

The most...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 01:38:55 GMT

As always it comes down to money. Without additional information we have no idea how much money the Kaiserliche Marine has to play with. We don't even know where these ships will be stationed.

If you do go with a smaller CL I think a modified Graudenz class would work just fine. Replace the 12 x 10.5cm main guns with 8 x 15cm naval rifles. Cost is only 8.8 million marks. 1/3rd the price of a Blucher size AC.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:19:45 GMT

Better to reduce the armour to protection against 6in guns and make the ships smaller and cheaper still.

This ship should be a light cruiser killer.

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (borys68) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:23:07 GMT

Ahoj!
Cleaned up the above design a bit ... still not so good, sadly ...

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1911

Displacement:
9 338 t light; 9 787 t standard; 11 073 t normal; 12 101 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
475,96 ft / 473,60 ft x 68,50 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
145,07 m / 144,35 m x 20,88 m x 6,71 m

Armament:
8 - 7,50" / 191 mm guns (4x2 guns), 200,00lbs /...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (borys68) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:19:12 GMT

Ahoj!
Another design, IMO very well armoured. With 7,5" bought from Austro-Hungary.
Borys

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1911

Displacement:
9 357 t light; 9 806 t standard; 11 093 t normal; 12 123 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
473,60 ft / 473,60 ft x 68,50 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
144,35 m / 144,35 m x 20,88 m x 6,71 m

Armament:
8 - 7,50" / 191 mm guns...

Re: Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (borys68) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:12:23 GMT

Ahoj!
I took your design as starting point. Oddly enough, the same hull dimensions gave me a 12K tonnes ship , so I had to fiddle about.
The fruit of my labours is below. Far from perfect ...

I gave more MB shells, and entered the shell weight from NavWeapons.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1911

Displacement:
9 141 t light; 9 594 t standard; 10...

Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

feeds@yuku.com (REMATOG) — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:27:58 GMT

If someone can please design a pre-world war one armored cruiser, design date of mid-1910, laid down late1911, launched early 1913 and commissioned in late 1913. This would be a class of 4 ships (dates are for first in class, last you be about 1 year later).

Design requirements:

Main battery, 4x 2 gun turrets, 21 cm L/45 C04 (8.2") , in line superfiring arrangement (similar to Konig class of about same date).
Secondaries, 8x single gun casement mounted (4 per...