BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:58:18 GMT

In fairness CVA02, you'r examining those nations through the paradigm of what did happen as opposed to the paradigm of what might have happened. If in 1990 the UK had said "we're gonna be building a couple of dozen new Nimrod MRA.4, first should be avaiable around 1998, and we're planning on keeping the line open for half a decade, anyone want any?" then things may have been different. Australia may have been the keenest given that our P-3C needed a series of updates...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (CVA02) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:55:26 GMT

PMN1 wrote:
If a 'Nimrod' line had been reopened, who else would have been in the market for this size of aircraft?

The MRA4 had minimal export prospects from the beginning. The USN had been reluctant to pursue a P-3C replacement until the corrosion issue forced procurement of the P-8, by which time the MRA4 program was already in disrepute. A domestic, 4 engined MPA from Kawasaki was...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:53:57 GMT

Given that MRA4 appears to be practically a newbuild aircraft, what does that say for the ability of Britain to make an equivalent sized (or bigger??) commercial airliner by itself as a national project, one that would hopefully sell more than 8 units?

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:50:52 GMT

Spyflight's entry on the AEW3 version is quite interesting.

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/nim%20aew.htm

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (shaun) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:16:05 GMT

^^ tascheone corrected me on another thread saying that it cannot be done because of interference of the various radars and electronic equipment.

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:26:55 GMT

Zen9 wrote:

If we're producing this in MRA, ASTOR and R1 what else might we squeeze into this type?

AEW.........

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:23:11 GMT

At the time Japan and the USN I think, and considering the capability, one might have touted to a number of other states.
Not sure if that fits the procurement timetables of New Zealand or Australia though.

India is another possibility.

If we're producing this in MRA, ASTOR and R1 what else might we squeeze into this type? The use of Storm Shadow on it does'nt give it the stand off range to become a bomber, we'd need to have something longer range...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:04:11 GMT

If a 'Nimrod' line had been reopened, who else would have been in the market for this size of aircraft?

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:31:48 GMT

I would'nt be surprised in the least by what you say Bledlow.
I still think it would've been cheaper to just build the lot new.
Alas politicians are not really good at technology, procurement or any function of government. Their good at winning elections by persuading people vote for them.

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Bledlow) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 22:18:50 GMT

IIRC BAe has said that the design & manufacturing work done on the rebuilt MRA4s has prepared it to build new MRA4 airframes if wanted. If I understand it right, they ended up having to model the whole airframe in their CAD/CAM system, not just the redesigned sections.

Much of the fuselage is now new, not just the wings, & the metal-cutting, forming & so on to make new copies of those airframe sections retained from the old Nimrods is relatively easy & cheap, now...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:14:03 GMT

Jim back when the decision was made on MRA4 I was advocating new build Nimrods, and have been proved to have been on the right track. In fact I seem to reccal saying ASTOR should be a part of the new build run as well.

It would be a far easier task to fit the new kit into new airframes, and a new Nimrod II adapted to modern manufacturing, the demands of modern electronics and could've been the product with potential for export orders since.

We missed a big opportunity...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:53:43 GMT

Benefit of hindsight shows that new-build airframes would almost certainly have been better and cheaper, but the damage is now essentially done (i.e. too much money spent in the existing order for new-builds to be a plausible alternative).
As an aside though, I think there is an interesting case to be made that in the early 1990's the UK could have invested in a fleet of perhaps 30 or so new build Nimrod-class airframes (i.e. narrow body quads or narrow body twins) with variants for...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:46:12 GMT

Wouldn't they save a fortune by just ordering new build MRA4s instead of these frankestein hybrids? Cut the existing order to eight then order 22 all new airframes....

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 04:37:54 GMT

The curve ball in the equation Meeware and Zen, is that the actual electronic bits of Nimrod MRA.4 are probably the most functional... IIRC, the system forms the basis of the CMS in the P-8!
Ergo, the problem with Nimrod are bizarrely and unacceptably, primarily related to trying to re-engineer the airframe and dynamic systems.

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:46:30 GMT

Funny isn't it- historically the cheapest way to maintain capability is to evolve a design and do new-build airframes and systems, and the most expensive is to cram new bits into old airframes and partially redesign them. This comes up all the time- Harrier, Hawk and Hornet evolution, relatively cheap. Spey Phantoms, SHAR and Nimrod, horrendously expensive for what you get. I'm quite prepared to believe this...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Rob) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:44:21 GMT

@Philip Sayers: I haven't read anything to suggest that this FFBNW capability for Storm Shadow has been deleted.

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Philip Sayers) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:21:18 GMT

Hello,

Can someone please tell me whether it is still planned to equip MRA4 'for but not with' Storm Shadow?

Seems to me a cheap way to regain a capability we haven't had since the Vulcans albeit in comfortable environments only.

Perhaps too much of a diversion away from their maritime role but that will happen anyway.

Thanks

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Bledlow) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:08:10 GMT

My mistake. I knew the P-7 had been a candidate, but had forgotten the details.

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (taschoene) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:30:13 GMT

P-7 was apparently the leading contender to replace Nimrod from the 1980s, but the USN cancelled it in 1990. That forced the MoD to run a competition in 1995 that ultimately led to the selection of Nimrod 2000 (now MRA.4). That competition did not include the P-7 (obviously), but did include two P-3 versions -- one with new-built aircraft (Orion 2000) and one based on rebuilt airframes (Valkyrie). IIRC, both would have incorporated P-7 engines and possibly wings, but neither was not an...

Re: BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (Meeware) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:23:40 GMT

BBC: MRA4 Reduced to 8 units, 8 years late, Cancellation?

feeds@yuku.com (CVA02) — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:12:55 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/7315686.stm I still thought that there would be 3 development airframes and 9 production examples for a 12 unit buy? Does the statement, "....if the order for eight new MRA4 planes is canceled," indicate that the buy has been further reduced to 8 units?" What is certain is that the Nimrod MRA4 program has been a continuing embarrassment for Labor, with no assurance that the MRA4 will be any less problematic in service than...