When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:48:03 GMT

caioduilio wrote:
When I was a boy, in the late 60s and early 70s, everybody was affected by the variable geometry fever. General Dynamics, Grumman, Dassault, Mig, Sukhoi, Panavia...

And one of the advantages was said to be greater agility at subsonic speeds due to the much higher aspect ratio when the wing was at low angles, while retaining a supersonic maximum speed using high angles.

Was...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (caioduilio) — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:55:33 GMT

When I was a boy, in the late 60s and early 70s, everybody was affected by the variable geometry fever. General Dynamics, Grumman, Dassault, Mig, Sukhoi, Panavia...

And one of the advantages was said to be greater agility at subsonic speeds due to the much higher aspect ratio when the wing was at low angles, while retaining a supersonic maximum speed using high angles.

Was all rubbish?

Was everybody crazy or incompetent at the time?

Tomcat could,...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:19:08 GMT

I imagine the poor states just pulled any worn engine and swapped in a new one from their Soviet patrons.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 01:44:59 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:
How was the the maintenance and support for the MiG-23 poor compared to western fighters? Per wiki, some of the users of the MiG-23 were piss poor countries, with little expertise or capability (I assume) in high tech maintenence, such as Angola, Yemen and Zimbabwe.

I have read that the engines of Soviet fighters (and, presumably, attack aircraft) were designed with quite short service lives,...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:01:44 GMT

How was the the maintenance and support for the MiG-23 poor compared to western fighters? Per wiki, some of the users of the MiG-23 were piss poor countries, with little expertise or capability (I assume) in high tech maintenence, such as Angola, Yemen and Zimbabwe.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:34:51 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:

bager1968 wrote:
Ummm the Mig 27 was primarily developed as a ground-attack plane, with most models having only a very minimal radar (if any at all). <

Sorry, typo, I meant the MiG-29. I know that the MiG-27 was mostly a ground attack plane, not a fighter, much as the MiG-25 was an interceptor, not a fighter. Back on...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:43:38 GMT

bager1968 wrote:
Ummm the Mig 27 was primarily developed as a ground-attack plane, with most models having only a very minimal radar (if any at all). <

Sorry, typo, I meant the MiG-29. I know that the MiG-27 was mostly a ground attack plane, not a fighter, much as the MiG-25 was an interceptor, not a fighter. Back on topic, the MiG-21 and MiG-29 are both agile fighters, while apparently the MiG-23...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (bager1968) — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:12:44 GMT

Ummm the Mig 27 was primarily developed as a ground-attack plane, with most models having only a very minimal radar (if any at all).

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig23.html

"Mock combats showed the older MiG-21 could win turning fights handily with the MiG-23, though in the vertical plane the MiG-23's greater power gave it an edge. The nastiest problem was ugly handling characteristics under...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:22:36 GMT

emc wrote:

I've also heard that the MiG-23's maneuverability made the Phantom look like a paragon of grace.

Why would they go from the maneuverable MiG-21 to a sluggish MiG-23? Especially since the next MiG fighter (as opposed to interceptor), the MiG-27 was again designed around maneuverability.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:25:42 GMT

wabpilot wrote:

Ed wrote:
Couldn't the guns be "walked" onto the targets by following the tracers?

Tracers work both ways.

Also, that's wasteful of ammunition.

especially at 6,000 rounds per minute!!

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (wabpilot) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:10:52 GMT

emc wrote:

Actually, and confusingly, there were two distinct F-4G's: a few (maybe a dozen) F-4B's were equipped with a datalink (I'm typing from memory, so forgive me if I mis-remember) to reduce pilot workload during carrier approaches. I believe these all reverted to F-4B or were upgraded to F-4N. See Phantom Variants.
...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (wabpilot) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:02:34 GMT

Ed wrote:
Couldn't the guns be "walked" onto the targets by following the tracers?

Tracers work both ways.

Also, that's wasteful of ammunition.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:23:01 GMT

seasick wrote:
Phantom II
F-4A -- USN Prototype version
F-4B -- USN production
F-4C -- (ex-F110) USAF version of F-4B
RF-4C -- USAF
F-4D -- USAF
RF-4D -- USAF
F-4E -- USAF
F-4EJ -- Japan
F-4F -- Luftwaffe
F-4G -- "Wild Weasel" variation
F-4J -- USN Production
F-4K -- RAF
F-4M -- USN F-4B retrofit
...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (seasick) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:40:20 GMT

Phantom II
F-4A -- USN Prototype version
F-4B -- USN production
F-4C -- (ex-F110) USAF version of F-4B
RF-4C -- USAF
F-4D -- USAF
RF-4D -- USAF
F-4E -- USAF
F-4EJ -- Japan
F-4F -- Luftwaffe
F-4G -- "Wild Weasel" variation
F-4J -- USN Production
F-4K -- RAF
F-4M -- USN F-4B retrofit RAF
F-4N -- USN F-4B retrofit
F-4S...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:48:18 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:
Would the North Vietnamese have done better in A2A if they'd had the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23? The Flogger was active in USSR service by 1970, so could be operational in Vietnam in small numbers before the end of hostilities.

Interestingly, the Soviets thought enough to put a 23 mm cannon into the design from the start.

I've also heard that the MiG-23's...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Ed) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:23:57 GMT

Couldn't the guns be "walked" onto the targets by following the tracers?

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (seasick) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:08:02 GMT

The MIG-23 was too new. I don't think the Soviets would have provided it. The North Vietnamese didn't have the best training program and would probably have lost them quickly.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:31:35 GMT

Would the North Vietnamese have done better in A2A if they'd had the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23? The Flogger was active in USSR service by 1970, so could be operational in Vietnam in small numbers before the end of hostilities.

Interestingly, the Soviets thought enough to put a 23 mm cannon into the design from the start.

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (JBren1) — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:41:03 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:
Thanks. I've read that the pod-gunned F-4s suffered from a lack of a proper gunsight, at least in the early pod-gunned models. Apparently the F-4s using gun-pods were not equipped with lead-computing gunsights, which affected their kill rates.

See above, F-4C's did not have lead computing gunsights but F-4D's did, despite having no integral gun. But also see above, F-4C's as...

Re: When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (wabpilot) — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:01:41 GMT

StewartG wrote:
I have another question on the F4E.

The cannon under the nose pointed at quite a significant angle below the axis of the aircraft. Did this make for any aiming difficulties or other tactical disadvantages (in the A2A role, I mean; for A2G I'd imagine it would have some advantages)?

The M61A1 on the USAF's F-4s is a short range last ditch weapon in the A2A mode. The...

When did F-4E enter USN service in Vietnam?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:23:31 GMT

I was watching Dog Fights on the History Channel http://www.history.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=108664 last night, where they had a group of F-4s fighting MiGs in Vietnam in 1972. I noticed that the F-4s depended entirely on missiles. When did cannon armed F-4s enter USN service in Vietnam?