Sydney Search Sails

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Planschbeckenseemann) — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:52:08 GMT

Several sources mention the 37 mm Flak, but according to Detmers' own book, he wasn't able to obtain one when his ship was fitted out because the Hilfskreuzer ranked low in Kriegsmarine priority, and he had to activate some private connections to the army in order to obtain the Paks. I don't know if he later managed to get hold of a Flak.

I also wondered about the parallels between the Sydney-Kormoran case and the Stier-Stephen Hopkins battle. In both cases, the opposing...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:27:47 GMT

I would like to add that all Flak guns on Kormoran were of the 20 mm calibre while the 37 mm guns were Pak 36 AT guns borrowed from the army. Those guns were not capable of automatic fire, but they probably were more accurate and capable of firing special armor-piercing projectiles.

According to an English translation of a German book I have, titled "German...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:14:43 GMT

Badger 1968,

Your sequence of events is more or less what I think happened. At most, I think the forward turrets got off maybe one or two salvos, probably in local control, before the torpedo detonation killed everybody in the forward magazines.

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Planschbeckenseemann) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:50:43 GMT

I would like to add that all Flak guns on Kormoran were of the 20 mm calibre while the 37 mm guns were Pak 36 AT guns borrowed from the army. Those guns were not capable of automatic fire, but they probably were more accurate and capable of firing special armor-piercing projectiles.

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (bager1968) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:32:36 GMT

Part of the delay in Sydney's returning fire was undoubtedly caused by something resembling the following thought/word sequence:
0. (-~5 minutes) "All gun crews, as we intend capture, do not fire unless so ordered. Acknowledge order."
1. (0 sec) OMG, they're firing at us!!
2. (5-10 sec) [waiting for a fire command] Shouldn't the bridge be telling us to fire back?
3. (10-20 sec) [into the comm system from turret to FC] "This is...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:30:23 GMT

the problem that I have initially with your explanation is that if Sydney's main armament had twenty seconds or more before they were disabled, there should have been at least eight hits from Sydney's six inch guns and Kormoran was not hit that many times in the whole engagement.

I wouldn't characterize my theories as an explanation, they are more in the nature of speculation as to what...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (jim3au) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:36:06 GMT

I will think on the very good points that you have made.

the problem that I have initially with your explanation is that if Sydney's main armament had twenty seconds or more before they were disabled, there should have been at least eight hits from Sydney's six inch guns and Kormoran was not hit that many times in the whole engagement.

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:34:14 GMT

What I was wondering was what cheating would look like.

That's easy, the rules say that a warship has to be flying it's national colors before it can open fire. Cheating would be failure to do so. Practically speaking that means as long as the ship's colors are, or reasonably should be, visible to it's opponent, it can open fire immediately. As Mark Horan pointed out, it takes maybe...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (jim3au) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:41:18 GMT

I might be the only fellow in this discussion who regularly had beers with an ex-driver of an SS Panzer. He was a lovely fellow [with a very nice daughter too]. I do not need convincing that Germans were good blokes. And I understand that this was early in the war before sailors were being machine gunned when they lost their ship.

What I was wondering was what cheating would look like.

About ten years ago, I got some bee in my...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (bager1968) — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 02:28:56 GMT

Keep in mind that the German Navy, as the service most populated by long-service personnel at all levels and ranks, was also the least populated by members of the Nazi party.

Most people judge all Germans (and all sectors of the German military) in WW2 by the worst of them... willing members of the Nazi party and especially the SS... but this is a very inaccurate view, as most Germans and German military men were just as human, humane,...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Mark E Horan) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:35:11 GMT

Jim;

Detmers, like the other HSK captains, served in a service that, while young, had in two wars established high traditions of honour in combat, especially so on that type of ship. Given the odds he faced, Detmers had no illusions as to the likely outcome. Even the most favorable of scenarios was going to see his ship lost. The only thing he was likely to carry from the battle as his personal honour and that of the Kriegsmarine - something it had a history of doing in hopeless...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (jim3au) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 05:33:52 GMT

Mark said,
"For the record, I don't believe for a second that Detmer's raised the white flag or open fire with any weapons without the German Battle Ensign flying."

Why not?

Exactly when should the German Flag have been raised?

I am not specifically casting aspersions on the German Captain, Detmers, rather I am judging him by myself. He had plenty of warning that a cruiser was chasing him and by the time that she caught up, all guns should...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:25:08 GMT

Carley floats were I believe launched by removing a pin and striking with a small mallet secured to the aperatus. Or something of that sort.

IMHO the small number of survivors is explained by sydney steaming away, highly damaged. At some point in the evening, in the worsening weather there was a catastrophic structural failure around A mounting where the torpedo damage was. This damage allowed sudden flooding of a significant portion of the ship and the ship settled quickly.
...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (robertf2) — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:07:52 GMT

NewGolconda wrote:
Is it just me or is that exactly the wrong word to use. I understood his majesties ships of the early WWII period carried ships boats and carley floats, but no life boats.

Exactly. HMAS Sydney was not a cruise liner.

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (Mark E Horan) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:17:13 GMT

Gents;

More thoughts

IMHO, it was not just the likely instantaneous loss of command & the conn when the bridge was hit in the third salvo, but the rapidly expanding effect of the continued hits taking out the DCT et al. combined with the torpedo explosion that certainly knocked out "A" & "B" turrets (they did not fire thereafter) but likely breached the bulkheads in front of and behind "A" turret and the resulting flooding, combined...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:57:39 GMT

Is it just me or is that exactly the wrong word to use. I understood his majesties ships of the early WWII period carried ships boats and carley floats, but no life boats.

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (chrisRoach) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 07:49:42 GMT

CVA02 wrote:
"Quote: Without doubt the most chilling find in the debris field was the presence of five of Sydney's lifeboats." http://www.findingsydney.com/gallery.asp

Certainly is a haunting sight...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (CVA02) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 23:13:13 GMT

"Quote: Without doubt the most chilling find in the debris field was the presence of five of Sydney's lifeboats." http://www.findingsydney.com/gallery.asp

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (jim3au) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:27:15 GMT

Badger, I did not expect the ship to be in the excellent condition it is. I did not expect so many small fittings to still be there and recognizable. given that there seems to have been no current much around the ship since it sank and no evidence of silt covering, actually, if there had been partially burnt wood that sank with the ship, then I think that it could well still be where it sank and visible.

Parts of the apparatus for launching or retaining the boats is steel. I thought...

Re: Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (jim3au) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:10:45 GMT

Being completely ignorant, the forward magazine should have had plenty of ammunition and if it had gone up, I would have expected the ship to have sunk, what was left of it, immediately.

Sydney Search Sails

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:03:22 GMT

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23294391-31477,00.html