Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (jim 1) — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:09:14 GMT

Electric Joe -

Great to see you post again!

I'm going to try to channel the close-cropped gray-haired guy. After the U-1 affair, though, there's no telling what the guy'll do. ;-)

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (SeaTurtle Prince) — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 05:08:07 GMT

DeRobeck has one more undamaged dreadnought with him, albeit the second-oldest in history (and the oldest still in existance).

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Electric Joe) — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 03:19:37 GMT

I've noticed some speculation on what Necki's thinking/doing/planning under the circumstances.

Suffice it to say that his orders from Letters obviously permit substantial latitude given that his commander has basically turned the pursuit over to him and walked away. So we can guess whatever is written there, and whatever understanding these two officers have permits considerable discretion...and/or the execution of a pre-planned move of some sort. Regardless, Letters...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:52:36 GMT

I cannot write, as anyone who has read my attempts can verify.

I have already provided a complete Order of Battle and probable timeline if someone else wants to write the actual story text for Gorlice-Tarnow. I can work with the LT author to tweek the Heer operations timeline to insure we are on the same sheet of music. Since few people on this naval board show an interest...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (jim 1) — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:23:50 GMT

Big Dave and others -

What N Force will do has been scripted. In fact, it was drawn up as a result of discussions offline between moi and EJ. I offered to let the Voltaic One write it and even do some scripting, but got no luck.

I tried to get wb to write TIOWF, I got one Aussie to write Gallipoli but I don't think he ever quite finished it, I've tried to get one particular sucker, er, writer to do Russia, ....

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Big Dave) — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:28:35 GMT

By "pummeling a couple of towns" I mean making a lot of noise. Instead of beating up the town proper maybe the best thing to do is to blast away at the shore batteries near the town at long range. Shore batteries are legit military targets but will cause local panic much as did the Raid of the Dread Pirate Borys. If...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (PhilJD) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:21:48 GMT

Thank you for the correction NewGalconda - had just reread 'The Jutland Scandal' and the difference between the theoretical torpedo effectiveness and reality just astounds me and stuck somewhat obtrusively in the mind

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:43:26 GMT

http://www.mmmfiles.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemid=33
The U.S. is the propaganda prize, not Britain. Germany needs to halt $10 billion worth of direct U.S. financial assistance to the Entente war effort before the "guaranteed loans" begin in September 1915.

Shelling civilian property will not play well in the...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (CJvR) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:27:16 GMT

Propaganda swings both ways, admitting that the fleet was unable to defend the isles will be quite a blow and that will be hard to cover up if they do a media blitz on the outrageous German bombardment. Besides if Civilian casualties is troubeling then there should be plenty of harbours, industries and waerhouses to lob a few shells at.

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:09:29 GMT

That accomplishes no military purpose and hands Britain a propaganda victory. If you want to raid the British coast then send KK Borys in another GTB1913. His actions kill no civilians and do not target civilian property. The dreaded Huns actually set foot on English soil. Best of all, both the GTB and KK Borys are expendable assets.

Meanwhile the non-expendable BCs can prepare for the long trip north. TF Z is pretty small and does not have a naval base in the Barents Sea....

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (CJvR) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:06:04 GMT

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,530319,00.html

Reminded me of this...

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/highres_00004406.jpg

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:50:16 GMT

No. Jellicoe cancelled his order to close the range at the last minute, had he not done so we might have got the exploding ships of Letterstime. Are you claiming Jutland was a British victory?

HEre you combine the mistaken with the unrelated.

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Big Dave) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:24:48 GMT

I do agree that Necki needs to be very circumspect about engaging the BCs against two QEs in ideal gunnery condidtions.

That said, they have longer than you think to get into position to support Force Z. Force Z is still about a LT week away from discovery. Even after they are discovered the RN will have to engage in a couple days of "What the heck are they doing now?" Overlay that with confusion that alweays follows a battle and there will be some recrimination about...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Big Dave) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:05:58 GMT

TomB:
Thanks for the Operation Heinrich link.

I read their outline and I think it presented a very plausible East Front-dominated scenario.

Oh! The advantages of hindsight.

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:37:48 GMT

How much sea time did the HSF get during the decade prior to WWI? How often did they conduct fleet exercises containing dozens of battleships plus all the escorts? You cannot proficiently conduct a major military operation during wartime without prior training to work out all the little details.

Think about how screwed up the Gallipoli and Tanga operations were. Britain could not conduct a modern (i.e. WWI era) amphibious landing because they did not conduct realistic training...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (richard roper) — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:23:18 GMT

No. Jellicoe cancelled his order to close the range at the last minute, had he not done so we might have got the exploding ships of Letterstime. Are you claiming Jutland was a British victory?

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:23:06 GMT

"No that was later, and of which Electric Joe was rightly aware. Initially a closed range may well have meant the situation Letterstime describes - exploding ships and being trapped, unable to withdraw. "

People write some funny things.

Jellicoe had long considered the possibility of enemy turning away, and he considered there was a high risk of his ships being drawn over mines or submarines. All this is covered in detail in pre Jutland correspondence.

...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (Dave Bender) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:18:56 GMT

Just how aggressive do you intend to be? There is no need to chase the RN all the way to the Scapa Flow shipping channel buoys! Pursuing the RN fleet until 1800 will be plenty to get the point across as to who controls the battle field and who ran away. It is also plenty to cover the return of the German ocean liners.

The German BCs are needed up north to support TF Z. That means they need...

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (moltke1) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:34:26 GMT

Dave wrote.

....by about 1800, so you have 3 hours of daylight....

The sun do not set at 2100, it will not be dark before 2300

Re: Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (richard roper) — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:56:45 GMT

No that was later, and of which Electric Joe was rightly aware. Initially a closed range may well have meant the situation Letterstime describes - exploding ships and being trapped, unable to withdraw.

Letterstime-Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI (EDITED)

feeds@yuku.com (jim 1) — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:13:45 GMT

I have fixed some typos, but mainly fixed and beefed up some of the NOTEs.

Also, I hope this fixs the format glitch.

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Letterstime - Ein Geleitzug: Homeward Bound? Part LI

July 8, 1915

---- Warspite,...