Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:54:57 GMT

It's been 11 years, but the public service hasn't forgotten how to break in new ministers. But spare a thought for those working with the PM.

My dear Freddy,

How's your new minister? Housebroken yet? Mine is most satisfactorily baffled by the pile of Most Urgent folders he found on his desk, along with the posy and the chocolates. There they sit like a stack of yesterday's pancakes while the poor fellow actually attempts to read them, tongue lightly...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (pascaly) — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:30:48 GMT

Jim WH wrote:
Hang on, I thought the Rudd government's first priority was indigenous affairs? Or health? Or education? Or climate change? Or was it saving the Barbary Ape?
Can somebody actually confirm what their first priority is?

You're all way off, it's abolishing AWAs...I'm sure I read that somewhere....I really get the feeling they adopted the "it's easier to get forgiveness...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:02:34 GMT

Hang on, I thought the Rudd government's first priority was indigenous affairs? Or health? Or education? Or climate change? Or was it saving the Barbary Ape?
Can somebody actually confirm what their first priority is?

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (IanRG) — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:41:58 GMT

Here is what Joel said just 6 months ago (22 June 2007):

"But whatever the reason for the failure to produce a new White Paper, let's look at some of the opportunity costs of not doing one:

1. Its absence has allowed the drift between strategic guidance and capability planning.

2. A White Paper would have been the best mechanism for developing a strategy to deal with the single biggest issue facing the ADF - its people shortage. We need an expanded Army....

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:28:42 GMT

Navy cost sinking budget

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:25:56 GMT

sjtownsend wrote:
Ian and Moskit,

I'm disappointed as well, but both sides play politics with defence (anyone remember photographs from 2001?). I'll dead-bat that point by expressing a hope that the good Colonel can perform at adequate levels in his new job as a secretary and assist the good minister in his duties.

Okay, so perhaps this opens up another line of thought for us to pursue....

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (sjtownsend) — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:27:07 GMT

Ian and Moskit,

I'm disappointed as well, but both sides play politics with defence (anyone remember photographs from 2001?). I'll dead-bat that point by expressing a hope that the good Colonel can perform at adequate levels in his new job as a secretary and assist the good minister in his duties.

Okay, so perhaps this opens up another line of thought for us to pursue. I'm always happy to see warships find new homes (but equally hope they're never called...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (IanRG) — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 07:43:39 GMT

Simon,

I agree that a common platform based on Seahawks instead of what we have is and always was a much better option. The original spurious argument raised against this was that the ANZACs with Sea Sprites and Penguin missiles were "Tier 2" packages optimised for patrolling "Fortress Australia" whilst being able to backup the "Tier 1" DDGs, Perth replacements and FFGs. The Sea Sprite with ASMs being considered more useful for domestic service. However...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (Moskit) — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 00:45:53 GMT

"Is this because the latter designs are too 'mission-specific' for the Cold War anti-submarine conflict which never happened? "

Almost certainly not since the M Cass and Type 23s are being operated by a navy (Chile) that requires effective general purpose frigates. The reasons for "force reductions" amongst the RN and RNlN are more to do with funding than the vessels concerned being too "mission specific"

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (sjtownsend) — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:03:27 GMT

Ian,

Commonality would have been nice. Extra Seahawks, instead of Sea Sprites, could have provided additional aviation service relative to what the Sea Sprites have delivered. Likewise, there was an opportunity to extend the ANZAC build series, for either NZ or Australia, but neither took it up. Could an enlarged ANZAC (eg MEKO 360 or even a bigger type) have accommodated a 3-D air search radar and sufficient SAMs to provide true area defence for the fleet?

One thing that...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (IanRG) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:19:51 GMT

SeaSprite was signed for by the Howard government in 1997. The program work and contractual wrangling had mostly happened during the KEating years, but the actual contract signature happened under Howard.

I stand corrected but it does not absolve Joel's party, it just throws the other party in with this cess-pit and leaves neither party able to critise the other on this.

FOD

I meant FOD generically not specifically....

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:21:20 GMT

I remember reading all the project milestones for the Collins class combat system get well programme in APDR in 1995. Sounded great at the time.

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:18:51 GMT

In the past decade there have been (by my count) half a dozen reviews (or what amount to reviews) that describe the future direction of the ADF. The 2000 white paper and the 2005 update describe the broad strategic guidance; the 2002, 2004, and 2006 Defence Capability Plans describe the material direction of the future ADF; the 2003 defence procurement review (Kinnaird) describe the past failing of defence procurement and the major steps required in avoiding those mistakes in the future. All...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:19:58 GMT

I'm really glad to hear that! Wish we'd had one too, but we can't even get a defence review done right now...

Kevin

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:19:21 GMT

Basically Kevin, we worked all this out during the Kinnaird Review in 2003 which identified several key shortcomings in Australian defence procurement. As a result of the review the Kinnaird process was developed that involves (amongst other things) milestones, spiral development, and two pass approval with a requirement for developmental options to be consider against the closest existing alternative. By way of example, this is why Australian Aerospace (a subsidy of Eurocopter) has had to...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:06:47 GMT

"Judging by some recent programs we are having the high price and the high risk, and working in areas where there are only 1-2 companies in the world with any credibility - electronically scaned AEWC aircraft might be an example, submarine combat systems another. "

As long as you have 2 suppliers, you're doing ok. You can play them off against each other, although it's possible for new suppliers to jump in. You just need to keep risk management in mind, especially...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:08:08 GMT

Right now, you have a situation where the people making the specs have no idea if things are actually technically possible and contractors who are willing to tell them anything they want to hear because they know the gov will bail them out.

I agree that is whats happening now.

If you have good specs and good program management the contractors would be left holding the bag, and they know it. If something was technically risky,...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:46:36 GMT

"when does the contractor ever pay up big time for failed projects in western countries, regardless of the structure or model used?"

It happens, but you need a reasonably good program structure to accomodate it in the first place. Spiral development and milestones are probably the easiest way so far to keep a program on track, but there are others.

Right now, you have a situation where the people making the specs have no idea if things are actually technically...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:42:03 GMT

Ian, you're getting a couple of things confused:
*SeaSprite was signed for by the Howard government in 1997. The program work and contractual wrangling had mostly happened during the KEating years, but the actual contract signature happened under Howard.
*FOD was the project to replace the older River DE. The logic was roughly: FFG 1-3 were replacements for the Daring class destroyers (ergo Destroyer Replacements), FFG 4 was a one off Cold War increase (or so the logic went),...

Re: Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (NewGolconda) — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:28:57 GMT

Over ambitious specifications and underating risk - sure.

Poor Contract Lawyers - I wonder - when does the contractor ever pay up big time for failed projects in western countries, regardless of the structure or model used? It seems to me that the stakes are so much higher than normal business practices that the contractor has a very strong hand, regardless of its own faults. By the time problems arise so much work has been done, and so much money has been spent... The gestation...

Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

feeds@yuku.com (rabid stoat AUS) — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:17:25 GMT

Make what you will of this (ABC news):

Dud frigates are an inherited nightmare: Fitzgibbon

By Alexandra Kirk and staff