CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4975/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html en-us Copyright 2006, Yuku feeds@yuku.com (FeedMaster) webmaster@yuku.com (WebMaster) Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:03:53 GMT Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:05:13 GMT Yuku Feeds 1.0 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 60 Yuku http://static.yuku.com//feed/bypass/images/button-yuku.png http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4975/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html Yuku - free hosted forums and profiles 88 31 {pics-1.1 "http://www.icra.org/ratingsv02.html" l gen true for "http://yuku.com" r (nz 1 vz 1 lz 1 oz 1 cz 1 ) "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l gen true for "http://yuku.com" r (n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0 )) Search Search Domain q http://yuku.com/search/direct/ <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/68407/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-68407 My understanding is that Japanese practice at the time would not have allowed for a CV to operate with a cobbled-together airgroup I would rephrase to say your statement to say that it was IJN preference for their carriers to operate with homogenous airgroups. That said according to Mark Horan there had been a big shuffle of air personel just prior to Midway that saw many pilots transfered from the CV's to leadership positions on Zuiho, Ryuho and Junyo. This... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/68407 Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:05:10 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/68360/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-68360 My understanding is that Japanese practice at the time would not have allowed for a CV to operate with a cobbled-together airgroup such as could have been put together from the remnants of CarDiv 5's squadrons after Coral Sea, especially since the bulk of the surviving strike types were from Shokaku instead of Zuikaku.

Junyo and Ryujo operated "cobbled together" air groups during the Midway operation.

DANFS states that Sara was in San... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Glenn239) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/68360 Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:42:15 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/68326/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-68326 feeds@yuku.com (Philistine) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/68326 Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:50:51 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/67468/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-67468 Note that if the Japanese delay to wait for Z&S the US would also have Saratoga and TBFs instead of the TBDs. The IJN would not have had to "wait" for Zuikaku to join the Midway operation. She herself was undamaged at Coral Sea and acording to Shattered Sword she had on-board and availible the following operational planes (from a combination of her & Shokaku's airgroups); 25 fighters, 17 dive bombers and 14 B5N2.

Shokaku was a... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/67468 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:36:55 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66688/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66688 Now, whether you want to call this "bad doctrine", or a "bad habit", or just plain "bad luck" feel free, but it is what the Japanese did in 1942

Bad habit is the term that is applicable in this instance. There was a doctrinal failure insofar as the IJN had not made sufficient efforts to drive home the importance of comprehensive reconnaissance. Instead they'd allowed tactical commands to act on their own discretion, and Nagumo's... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Glenn239) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66688 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:54:50 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66629/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66629 feeds@yuku.com (Desertfox) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66629 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:40:32 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66449/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66449 The doctrinal lesson was that the Japanese system was too loosy-goosy in early 1942, lacking supervision from higher command authority to make certain that local carrier commanders (Nagumo, Yamaguchi and Hara) were operating to some specified standard. I would assume that the reason this occurred is because massed carrier tactics themselves were relatively new.
I see you still... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66449 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:44:01 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66422/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66422 Four instances of scouting missions being launched from carriers hardly invalidates the statement regarding IJN doctrine.

What IJN "doctrine"? The problem was a lack of doctrine, allowing subordinate commands such as Nagumo's crowd to nurture bad habits. It was their choice how to scout, indeed if they even bothered scouting at all. On December 8th 1941 Nagumo elected to use carrier aircraft to do so. On June 4th he chose to rely mainly on seaplanes.... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Glenn239) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66422 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:55:38 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66377/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66377 Largely true but this misses the point. Both you and Rich made the blanket claim that the IJN did not use its CV's for scouting.
Neither I, nor 1Big Rich, made a "blanket claim" that the IJN did not use it's carrier aircraft for scouting, and RBH is incorrect in so stating. The statement was that it was not IJN doctrine to use carrier assets for... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66377 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:58:49 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/66333/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-66333 Largely true but this misses the point. Both you and Rich made the blanket claim that the IJN did not use its CV's for scouting.

Adding a few points.

1) Soryu appears to have had aboard 2 D4Y Judy scout aircraft.
2) Both Akagi and Kaga launched a single B5N2 on search missions at Midway.
3) The IJN plan called for Nagumo to devote 10 B5N2 to long range scouting after June 4th, to detect the approach of Fletcher's carriers to the battle... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Glenn239) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/66333 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:44:26 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65544/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65544 I wonder how things would have gone differently if Adm. Yamaguchi was in charge of the Carrier Forces instead of Adm. Nagumo. Nagumo seemed in many ways to be similar to Spruance as far as being a cautious commander goes.
Nagumo was properly cautious because he appears to have not really understood the theories of naval carrier warfare as they existed at that time... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65544 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:41:46 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65433/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65433 IF Nagumo orders the strike, and IF the strike can reach the American carriers before they launch their own strikes, Nagumo will probably win. But that is not what happened historically; Nagumo had the capability of launching a limited strike against the American carriers at... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Joshua Kintner) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65433 Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:49:51 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65246/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65246 It's known that the IJN had no regular scouting planes organic to carrier air groups


Largely true but this misses the point. Both you and Rich made the blanket claim that the IJN did not use its CV's for scouting, and I disagreed and posted proof of at least 2 occasions where they did. I did not claim that IJN CV scouting was adequate or that the CV's were primarily responsible... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65246 Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:04:20 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65225/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65225

RBH Jr wrote:
"That contradicts IJN avaition strategy and tactics, especially this early in the war, as carriers were dedicated strike platforms. Recon/Search/Scouting was to be conducted by cruiser aircraft, to leave the carriers' airgroups to concentrate on strike. Tone and Chikuma weren't doing the scouting at Midway because Nagumo's carriers didn't have planes to spare; they were doing it... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (1Big Rich) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65225 Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:46:37 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65165/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65165 "That contradicts IJN avaition strategy and tactics, especially this early in the war, as carriers were dedicated strike platforms. Recon/Search/Scouting was to be conducted by cruiser aircraft, to leave the carriers' airgroups to concentrate on strike. Tone and Chikuma weren't doing the scouting at Midway because Nagumo's carriers didn't have planes to spare; they were doing it because it was their... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65165 Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:59:12 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65129/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65129
Incorrect.

While the IJN... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65129 Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:57:17 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65127/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65127 That contradicts IJN avaition strategy and tactics, especially this early in the war, as carriers were dedicated strike platforms. Recon/Search/Scouting was to be conducted by cruiser aircraft, to leave the carriers' airgroups to concentrate on strike. Tone and Chikuma weren't... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Dolphinstriker) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65127 Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:35:10 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65125/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65125
but only if the USN carriers could have been hit before launching their strikes.
Disagree strongly here. Your insistence that the only way Nagumo can defeat the USN carriers is to lauch at them before they launch does not make sense.
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65125 Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:28:39 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65122/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65122 but another fleet carrier division like CarDiv 5, if dedicated to searching for, and striking, the American carriers first, might have saved Nagumo's bacon,

That contradicts IJN avaition strategy and tactics, especially this early in the war, as carriers were dedicated strike platforms. Recon/Search/Scouting was to be conducted by cruiser aircraft, to leave the carriers' airgroups to concentrate on strike. Tone and Chikuma... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (1Big Rich) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65122 Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:57:23 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/65110/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html#reply-65110 but another fleet carrier division like CarDiv 5, if dedicated to searching for, and striking, the American carriers first, might have saved Nagumo's bacon, Agreed


but only if the... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (RBH Jr) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/sreply/65110 Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:53:57 GMT <![CDATA[ CVL Shoho employment in Midway operation ]]> http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4975/t/CVL-Shoho-employment-in-Midway-operation.html
Considering that the Japanese deployed just about every carrier they could muster with an airwing, how would Shoho have been used in the Midway operation? Were there any pre-Coral Sea deployment plans for her? If not, what would be the most likely deployment use for her? If her airwing as intact, it wouldn't... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Joshua Kintner) http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/4975 Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:03:53 GMT