Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:56:19 GMT

The Tejas is going very slowly, and I've actualy no idea how far along any navalised variant is now.

Really its a successor for the Mig21 and as such its very nice.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:59:36 GMT

Some other contender for Italy might be the "Tejas" now under development. As Fincantieri is already involved in develoment of the future indian aircraft carrier, Alenia might support HAL and develop a westernized version. Maybe not the better airplane, but possibly a better deal for Alenia.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:58:20 GMT

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (splott) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:31:18 GMT

I've posted this over at the Air Force forum the other day:

SAAB today unvealed there development platform for Gripen Next Generation http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRelations/Pressreleases/Pressrelease.htm?PressreleaseId=164618

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:25:10 GMT

The Swedes are looking to produce a developed Grippen with stronger landing gear and a more powerful engine (among other things) so if theres a gap for such a thing there it is right now, and Italy or Spain or both will have to jump in fast and hard to get the Sweds moving on it, but it is possible.
Being part of a development effort with an eye to upgrading where possible the existing Grippen fleet (engine and AESA are the big ones on that score) their also looking to potential deals...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Bledlow) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:35:28 GMT

Zen9 wrote:
...
Steam generation would be a problem, solveble but at the expense of space in the ship and fuel burn.

Electro-magnetic catapults might take up less space. Still need fuel to generate the power, of course, and they'd have to beef up the generating plant. And of course, there have to be such catapults, working, not just development projects.

I wonder if a carrier-capable Gripen would...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:23:07 GMT

Well to be a bit more precise: a LHA for (alleged) 1,4 bn EUR isn't exactly cheap, you could maybe get one "Orizzonte" and two "Juan Carlos I" for that money. It just wouldn't require even more invest for conversions..

Plus it would be a very fast, powerful and capable LHA with extensive C&C capabilities. 3-4 EH-101 AEW, 6 A-129 Mangusta, 8 EH-101 TTH and 4 LCVP should be possible and give some nice Assault capacities.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:46:43 GMT

PK wrote:
Back to item:
What could be done with "Cavour" without F-35B?

- CTOL, as described above: 60m catapults, 160m landing strip, for M346 conversions or something completely new.
- STOBAR with beefed-up M346 or Typhoon
- remove Ski Jump, use as LHA.

CTOL would make most sense from an operational point of view IMO. I only fear the Berlusconi government would...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:31:38 GMT

Depends what you want for this.

Its possible using a parallel deck configuration to operate the likes of Rafale and Hornet but its likely you'd have to sacrifice in this scheme the ability to launch and recover at the same time.
A shorter angled deck is possible, but the more you sponson it out the more you have to either shorten its length or add weight to the ship to counterbalance the end of the angled deck.

Steam generation would be a problem, solveble but at...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:26:40 GMT

Back to item:
What could be done with "Cavour" without F-35B?

- CTOL, as described above: 60m catapults, 160m landing strip, for M346 conversions or something completely new.
- STOBAR with beefed-up M346 or Typhoon
- remove Ski Jump, use as LHA.

CTOL would make most sense from an operational point of view IMO. I only fear the Berlusconi government would not only take these into account; a LHA would be the cheapest option..

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (BenRoethig) — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:25:31 GMT

They also had to make some temporary modifications to launch the Rafale as well.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (caioduilio) — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:56:16 GMT

to operate a single aircraft for trial is not the same as operate a squadron for combat duties.

Anyway Sao Paulo is already an old ship with an old steam powerplant etc etc. She could sail another decade, maybe, but Brazil should already think about the replacement, if any.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:39:33 GMT

Sao Paolo has already operated Rafale for trials (when she was still in French hands). Her catapults and arrestor gear are quite capable of handling the aircraft (albeit with a reduced payload, acceptable for fighter duties, more of a problem for the strike role admittedly) so no major refitting other general overhaulling is required.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (caioduilio) — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:34:16 GMT

Sao Paulo in 10 years time will be a bit oldish to be refitted for Rafale, IMHO...

But Brazil in next decade could be a richer country, thanks to the oil plants recently discovered (and by then oil will be VERY expensive) plus the domestic biofuel production, so they will be able to buy a new carrier, maybe a (reduced?) variant of PA2.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:39:06 GMT

President Sarkozy has apparently signed a deal with the Brazillians to transfer rafale technology, with a view to licence production probably. Doesn't take much to work out what may be replacing the Skyhawks aboard Sao Paolo in ten years time...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:17:28 GMT

I only wanted to show there was a (IMO) successful design that could serve as role model.
And by the way, the Brazilians might be interested in some Skyhawk follow-on.

I have no doubt the M346 could be made carrier-capable. It's just my opinion that this would
be something similar to a modern familiy SUV. My proposal was for a "real" tough ATV, let's
say a Landrover.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (caioduilio) — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:28:41 GMT

PK wrote:
As "Cavour" has almost the same length as "Foch", Italy might try to introduce an angled deck with a 160 meter landing strip plus two cats of 60 meters...

Unforunately this is not true. Foch is much larger. IMHO it is almost impossible to install two cats of 60m on Cavour. Cavour has almost same lenght and size of old HMS Hermes, now in indian navy.
Hermes in its first look, was...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:44:12 GMT

60m? Like on Clemenceau?
BS MkV catapult could throw a 21ton machine off at roughly 110kts.

Grippen is fine as a basis for a naval aircraft, but does need some work on it.

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (PK) — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:27:50 GMT

As "Cavour" has almost the same length as "Foch", Italy might try to introduce an angled deck with a 160 meter landing strip plus two cats of 60 meters. This should be enough for jets in the 7ton-class (15 tons max take-off). My proposal for this: a Joint Venture of Saab, Aermacci and Embraer to use Gripen components for a successor to the Skyhawk. My proposal would be a subsonic, single-engine CTOL jet with "classic" tail and moderate stealth.
Launch...

Re: What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:54:42 GMT

Sorry what capability in Europe?
Since the UK closed its sites and quit from CTOL CV's where in Europe is the facilities for cat and trap operations?
I'm not sure France has them, though I think Russia had a set.
Or are you saying Spain and Italy should go for CTOL CVs and rely on the US for those facilities now and for ever?

What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B?

feeds@yuku.com (Alexius55) — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:13:00 GMT

Britain's new carriers will be big enough to operate a CATOBAR aircraft if there's no F-35B. France aren't involved anyway. But where does that leave Europe's other two carrier-operating nations?

Would they try and get a navalised Typhoon to operate off their smaller carriers- maybe with a catapult? Would they produce a Harrier III themselves? Would they abandon fixed-wing naval aviation? Or would they go to Russia?!